public amenities instead of basic income

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Halina Brown

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Sep 12, 2019, 8:20:32 PM9/12/19
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Dear SCORAI’ers,

Some of you may find the attached document about the public alternative to Big Pharma interesting. It is a fine report issued by the Next System Project in the US. The proposal in it focuses on the US but it can be just as well applied in other advanced economies with a strong research sector.

https://thenextsystem.org/medicineforall?mc_cid=9bc87732e4&mc_eid=e81c2d3d7d

 

I find this proposal to be an important alternative to guaranteed basic income proposals. I have always been uncomfortable with the idea of guaranteed basic income because I see it as a massive indirect subsidy for the private sector that wants people to spend money on more and bigger stuff. This sector will surely devise the cleverest of ways to extract that extra income from citizens.

At the risk of sounding awfully patronizing, I believe that many people will spend that extra income not on better housing, live necessities, education for their children or other such “wise” choices, but on other things.

 

A better solution, other than distributing cash, is to create access to affordable high-quality housing, high quality free education, low cost or free healthcare, and low cost or free medicines, etc. This is why I find this report interesting.

 

Halina S. Brown
Professor Emerita of Environmental Science and Policy
Clark University
Worcester, MA 01610
http://halinasbrown.com

Associate Fellow
Tellus Institute
2 Garden Street, Cambridge MA 02438

http://tellus.org


Co-founder and Member of Executive Committee
Sustainable Consumption Research and Action Initiative, SCORAI
www.scorai.org

 

Ruben Nelson

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Sep 12, 2019, 9:24:47 PM9/12/19
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Halina,

Yours is an interesting line of thought.

Do you (or does anyone) know of formal work that sets out, thinks through and compares/contrasts the two approaches?  I do not.  I know of work that argues for/assesses each line of thought separately, both not together.

Ruben

 

 

Ruben Nelson

Executive Director

Foresight Canada

www.foresightcanada.com

 

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Jean Boucher

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Sep 12, 2019, 11:02:45 PM9/12/19
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It's an interesting and provocative take, Halina: provide the amenity over the cash. And good point from Ruben, have we the studies? I used to live with an economist (if that matters) and he would often say (from studies) that one of the best things we can do for poor people is give them cash. I think this type of policy, if Yang has some impact, will also need a culture to accompany it: how to not feel ashamed or how to "properly use" my government handout - fun fun - Jean



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If there is no struggle, there is no progress. -- Frederick Douglass

Christoph Rupprecht

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Sep 13, 2019, 12:23:50 AM9/13/19
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I don’t quite see why one is seen as an alternative for the other. Why not free education and healthcare as well as freedom from the need to sell your time and labour to survive?

Education, healthcare and housing are needed to allow everyone to participate meaningfully in society and democracy.
But all of these are also needed because, as Giorgos Kallis writes in his new book “Limits”, “effective participation requires time and economic freedom.” He argues that the enclosure of the commons (which I think we can understand in a very broad sense here, including education, healthcare, housing etc.) is what makes us dependent on wage work, while (re-)creating and sharing these commons would allow us to limit our accumulation and consumption without having to live with the feeling that it might not be enough for us, or our children, to make it through the next crisis.

I find his argument highly convincing.

Christoph


Dr. Christoph Rupprecht

Senior Researcher
FEAST Project (http://feastproject.org/?lang=en)
Research Institute for Humanity and Nature, Kyoto

Homepage: http://www.treepolis.org/
Academic profile: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christoph_Rupprecht
Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=kg4MMUoAAAAJ&hl=en

“Inowghe is as good as a feste.” Arthur, Le Morte Darthur, Thomas Malory (1485)

> On Sep 13, 2019, at 12:02, Jean Boucher <jlb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's an interesting and provocative take, Halina: provide the amenity over the cash. And good point from Ruben, have we the studies? I used to live with an economist (if that matters) and he would often say (from studies) that one of the best things we can do for poor people is give them cash. I think this type of policy, if Yang has some impact, will also need a culture to accompany it: how to not feel ashamed or how to "properly use" my government handout - fun fun - Jean
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 6:24 PM Ruben Nelson <ruben...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Halina,
>
> Yours is an interesting line of thought.
>
> Do you (or does anyone) know of formal work that sets out, thinks through and compares/contrasts the two approaches? I do not. I know of work that argues for/assesses each line of thought separately, both not together.
>
> Ruben
>
>
>
>
>
> Ruben Nelson
>
> Executive Director
>
> Foresight Canada
>
> www.foresightcanada.com
>
>
>
> <image002.jpg>
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/scorai/CA%2BsiMmhn3cqNPCAL%2Bt29%2BN0Z6PsB1BcUpzuBh6F04OsTsSyf3g%40mail.gmail.com.

Jean Boucher

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Sep 13, 2019, 3:47:22 AM9/13/19
to Christoph Rupprecht, Ruben Nelson, H Brown, SCORAI Group
Thanks, Christoph (and Giorgos), great point. it seems that I, and as some of us have written, have allowed my imaginary to be colonized and cant think out of my little individualist box - Jean

Halina Brown

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Sep 13, 2019, 11:14:12 AM9/13/19
to Christoph Rupprecht, jlb...@gmail.com, Ruben Nelson, SCORAI Group
Christoph,
The answer is two-fold:
1. In the world of limited public resources and limited bandwidth for social activism I place the access to these fundamental goods way ahead of any monetary help to citizens.
2. For reasons I described in my earlier message I think that guaranteed basic income in a consumer society is not a good idea in and of itself.

Halina

-----Original Message-----
From: Christoph Rupprecht [mailto:crupp...@chikyu.ac.jp]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:24 AM
To: jlb...@gmail.com
Cc: Ruben Nelson <ruben...@shaw.ca>; Halina Brown <HBr...@clarku.edu>; SCORAI Group <sco...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [SCORAI] public amenities instead of basic income

I don’t quite see why one is seen as an alternative for the other. Why not free education and healthcare as well as freedom from the need to sell your time and labour to survive?

Education, healthcare and housing are needed to allow everyone to participate meaningfully in society and democracy.
But all of these are also needed because, as Giorgos Kallis writes in his new book “Limits”, “effective participation requires time and economic freedom.” He argues that the enclosure of the commons (which I think we can understand in a very broad sense here, including education, healthcare, housing etc.) is what makes us dependent on wage work, while (re-)creating and sharing these commons would allow us to limit our accumulation and consumption without having to live with the feeling that it might not be enough for us, or our children, to make it through the next crisis.

I find his argument highly convincing.

Christoph


Dr. Christoph Rupprecht

Senior Researcher
FEAST Project (https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeastproject.org%2F%3Flang%3Den&amp;data=02%7C01%7Chbrown%40clarku.edu%7C10b21958d6a34fc89f2608d738022c43%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C1%7C0%7C637039454305461087&amp;sdata=RlYysmfEpywt1s9CqfCDT2wsIk94XBZuLQRhtlfXQXw%3D&amp;reserved=0)
Research Institute for Humanity and Nature, Kyoto

Homepage: https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.treepolis.org%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7Chbrown%40clarku.edu%7C10b21958d6a34fc89f2608d738022c43%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C1%7C0%7C637039454305461087&amp;sdata=eUhiqEs%2FRHGXRuKyrPCGyhRGynRarA3Sfr91io2WOmo%3D&amp;reserved=0
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“Inowghe is as good as a feste.” Arthur, Le Morte Darthur, Thomas Malory (1485)

> On Sep 13, 2019, at 12:02, Jean Boucher <jlb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's an interesting and provocative take, Halina: provide the amenity
> over the cash. And good point from Ruben, have we the studies? I used
> to live with an economist (if that matters) and he would often say
> (from studies) that one of the best things we can do for poor people
> is give them cash. I think this type of policy, if Yang has some
> impact, will also need a culture to accompany it: how to not feel
> ashamed or how to "properly use" my government handout - fun fun -
> Jean
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 6:24 PM Ruben Nelson <ruben...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Halina,
>
> Yours is an interesting line of thought.
>
> Do you (or does anyone) know of formal work that sets out, thinks through and compares/contrasts the two approaches? I do not. I know of work that argues for/assesses each line of thought separately, both not together.
>
> Ruben
>
>
>
>
>
> Ruben Nelson
>
> Executive Director
>
> Foresight Canada
>
> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.foresightcanad
> a.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Chbrown%40clarku.edu%7C10b21958d6a34fc89f2608d
> 738022c43%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C1%7C0%7C637039454305461
> 087&amp;sdata=IMhf%2B%2Bx6RsDdkKk9gJeYXs8Hca%2F4ifUKcoU%2BxyeRqEE%3D&a
> mp;reserved=0
>
>
>
> <image002.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: sco...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sco...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Halina Brown
> Sent: September 12, 2019 6:20 PM
> To: sco...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [SCORAI] public amenities instead of basic income
>
>
>
> Dear SCORAI’ers,
>
> Some of you may find the attached document about the public alternative to Big Pharma interesting. It is a fine report issued by the Next System Project in the US. The proposal in it focuses on the US but it can be just as well applied in other advanced economies with a strong research sector.
>
> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fthen
> extsystem.org%2Fmedicineforall%3Fmc_cid%3D9bc87732e4%26mc_eid%3De81c2d
> 3d7d&amp;data=02%7C01%7Chbrown%40clarku.edu%7C10b21958d6a34fc89f2608d7
> 38022c43%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C1%7C0%7C6370394543054610
> 87&amp;sdata=qZGTQw2iJfQsBWIPu82YaZntCw%2B98ogDldgxCNAuuQo%3D&amp;rese
> rved=0
>
>
>
> I find this proposal to be an important alternative to guaranteed basic income proposals. I have always been uncomfortable with the idea of guaranteed basic income because I see it as a massive indirect subsidy for the private sector that wants people to spend money on more and bigger stuff. This sector will surely devise the cleverest of ways to extract that extra income from citizens.
>
> At the risk of sounding awfully patronizing, I believe that many people will spend that extra income not on better housing, live necessities, education for their children or other such “wise” choices, but on other things.
>
>
>
> A better solution, other than distributing cash, is to create access to affordable high-quality housing, high quality free education, low cost or free healthcare, and low cost or free medicines, etc. This is why I find this report interesting.
>
>
>
> Halina S. Brown
> Professor Emerita of Environmental Science and Policy Clark University
> Worcester, MA 01610
> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhalin
> asbrown.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Chbrown%40clarku.edu%7C10b21958d6a34fc89
> f2608d738022c43%7Cb5b2263d68aa453eb972aa1421410f80%7C1%7C0%7C637039454
> 305461087&amp;sdata=4EmtwiCLknIFyg61bYHcuPVgg90nJvH4aovPf31d%2FRc%3D&a
> mp;reserved=0
>
> Associate Fellow
> Tellus Institute
> 2 Garden Street, Cambridge MA 02438
>
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> 087&amp;sdata=%2BR9LAeqQ48LZZC0ADkhhQdtrX2JP0B4fQI%2BWEVcPADI%3D&amp;r
> eserved=0
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>
> Co-founder and Member of Executive Committee Sustainable Consumption
> Research and Action Initiative, SCORAI
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Tom Abeles

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Sep 13, 2019, 11:55:03 AM9/13/19
to Halina Brown, Christoph Rupprecht, jlb...@gmail.com, Ruben Nelson, SCORAI Group
1) Discounting the ability of people to make intelligent decisions argues for a "nanny state" and is extreme hubris. It's what turned social democracy into what we see around the world currently. As noted in this thread, there is evidence that cash to the public yields better value than "things", both in the US and in development and disaster work.
2) There are universal health programs, starting with Canada which does have a blended program of public/private as do other countries. Particularly regarding drugs and their costs, again thinking of Canada; the US system is corrupted as we know regarding the ability of the military to negotiate but not the Medicare system on drug pricing. And, as with the current corruption, an academic study of either or both together can not reduce the influence of money in all its forms as we see under the current US administration.
3) There is discussion about the Chinese pirating US intellectual property from the private sector; yet, there is no discussion about the US private sector absorbing US government funded research, the patrimony of the tax system which allows the citizens to pay while the wealthy off-shore their gains.

Regarding "2" it's not just the healthcare/drugs. Rather it starts with the current banking/finance system and all the way back to the "Founding Fathers" who structured the entire system to favor a select class of citizens.

Start at the core and not at the manifestation. Treat the underlying etiology and not the symptom.

tom
tom abeles


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Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Sep 13, 2019, 12:45:11 PM9/13/19
to Halina Szejnwald Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com
Dear Halina,

With respect, I find the paper circulated to be well off base. 

Public ownership of pharmaceutical research and development was tried in the 60s and 70s in some countries. It was an absolute disaster. Innovation stalled amid the public bureaucracy and lack of real incentives to innovate. Bureaucracies don’t innovate, they mainly spend their time justifying why they should get bigger budgets. 

The authors clearly have no idea of the dynamics of pharmaceutical innovation most of which now comes from agile startups funded by the financial markets rather than big pharma. This is emerging as the only way in which the high risk nature of pharmaceutical research and the need for global availability of innovation can be sustained. The idea that government monopoly (with all the inevitable political shenanigans that it involves) can carry this sort of risk profile is laughable. 

I also personally find the retrograde discussion of pitting private vs public a tiresome throwback to the 1970s. I thought we were done with all that and that most people had moved on to an understanding that a mixed economy works best provided we keep working towards refining the incentive structures - which are currently out of whack - and can get better but will never be perfect. 

The issue of healthcare funding and access is a very valid one but one that is proving to be highly intractable in most countries. Would be great if there were some magic bullet but there isn’t. 

And it’s not just the difficulty of trying to work out appropriate pricing for drugs (an impossibility) but also gets one into what should doctors, nurses and everyone else get paid? What is the right price for an MRI scanner? Should governments be building those too? And everything else? 

I have no easy answers I’m afraid. And, sadly, neither does anyone else. 

Beware those selling snake oil.

Best

Joe



Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Richard Rosen

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Sep 13, 2019, 3:09:47 PM9/13/19
to Halina Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com
Halina, I agree with you, and you did not mention that taxpayers will have to pay for a basic income scheme, though presumably that would be only upper income tax payers.   But it would be a non-trivial change in the tax rates for them.  At only $10,000 per year basic income per capita, the total would be about $3.2 trillion, or about 16% of the entire GDP.  That is about two times total corporate profits.  --- Rich Rosen

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Philip Vergragt

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Sep 14, 2019, 10:09:23 AM9/14/19
to jo...@me.com, Halina Szejnwald Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com

Dear Joe, and all,

With the danger of being labeled as a retro 60s or 70s adept, I’d like to discuss the drive for more and more innovation. First, I think that it would be useful to consider public-private partnerships with strong and clear rules as to profits and ethical research. Next, biomedical research takes us with the speed of light towards cloning humans and gene-editing and whatever these new technologies are being called, without a viable discussion about the desirability of that all, and about possible negative side effects. That takes me straight to Joe’s point about innovation. While I see the benefits of biomedical innovation and we all benefit from it in our personal lives, I would like to propose that we do not take “more innovation is better” for granted; just like we are questioning economic growth and unbridled consumerism. Innovation should be led by social consensus, not by profit making.

I agree that most innovation comes from smalls start-ups; and it is not easy to regulate that; but the implementation comes through buying up of small start-ups by large corporations; and there is the possibility for public intervention and regulation.

Warm regards,

Philip

Tom Abeles

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Sep 14, 2019, 3:12:40 PM9/14/19
to Philip Vergragt, jo...@me.com, Halina Szejnwald Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com
Hi Philip, all
First, I would note that the pressure for "innovation", particularly science/technology comes from both the public and the private sector. One only has to think what has come out of DARPA and the defense contractors, not only to major research institutions and corporations but thru the many SBIR programs in all areas from weapons to agriculture and the social sciences. And this is not just in the US -e.g. countries such as Israel. This, today, is seen in China and other countries, including India, Japan and Korea (North and South). The recent kurflluffle concerning 5G and the Chinese firm Hua Wei is the visible. The problems emerging from issues surrounding the Internet such as Russian hacking and the small shops breaching security and freezing computers.

Second, this post, while of great concern is not one which is just US centric. More importantly for this thread, it does not address the initial postulate and Joe's insightful response, neither of which has been critically addressed but which, in the US has become an issue among the current persons running for the Democratic nomination, from two of the front runners, Sanders and Warren and the UBI proposal of Yang and is of concern on both the political left and right within the population at large.

Third, the entire US education curricula from preK->gray is focused on innovation both within the classroom, research and encouragement outside the walls of academia. The Singularity Institute, its members and those within the world of the private sector have embraced innovation in all sectors from health care to self driving cars to biopharma- und so weiter. It's worth a separate thread.

tom
tom abeles

Michael Howard

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Sep 14, 2019, 3:28:16 PM9/14/19
to Richard Rosen, Halina Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com
The net cost to taxpayers of a UBI (the extra taxes they pay, minus the UBI they receive) need be no more than the cost of a negative income tax, if the marginal tax rates match the phaseout rate of the NIT. So the gross figure of $3.2 trillion is misleading. The net cost is more like 1/6 of that, and certainly affordable.
While redistributing income form those with a lower propensity to spend vs. save ( the rich) to those with a higher propensity (the poor) is likely to result in higher consumption, do you really want to address the climate crisis by keeping people in poverty?
While the US could certainly use more public services, there are many things that poor people need, for which they need cash. Their needs are too varied to be all covered, or covered well, by services. Better and more respectful to give poor people enough cash for their food, then to provide surplus blocks of cheese, as was done in the Reagan administration.
The way to address spending that is needless and environmentally damaging is to combine UBI with other incentives. Funding the UBI partially with a carbon tax, for example, would discourage the use of fossil fuels and encourage a shift to renewable energy.

I agree that it is possible to have a mix of basic income and basic services. At the very least, we should add universal health care to the list of what is now provided.

Michael W. Howard
Department of Philosophy
The Maples
The University of Maine
Orono, Maine 04469 USA




Tom Abeles

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Sep 14, 2019, 3:40:54 PM9/14/19
to Michael Howard, Richard Rosen, Halina Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com

Halina Brown

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Sep 14, 2019, 4:19:10 PM9/14/19
to Michael Howard, Richard Rosen, sco...@googlegroups.com

Michael,

Reducing my reflections to this single question: “do you really want to address the climate crisis by keeping people in poverty?” misses the point of my reflections or, worse, is disingenuous. And comparing the idea of public ownership of the pharmaceutical industry to providing slabs of third grade cheese is ridiculous.

My point is that right now poor people (and not only the poor) in this country spend a large proportion of their income on corporatized healthcare, including medications as well as other basic amenities such as housing, etc. Giving them cash does nothing to change the system that produces these exorbitant prices and transfers wealth from the poor to the well-to-do and the rich. To the contrary: it indirectly subsidizes that system and keeps it more stable. It treats the symptoms, not the cause. And it is the system that needs to be fundamentally changed.

 

This is why (among other reasons I articulated earlier) I do not think that basic income is a good idea.

 

If these basic amenities become easily affordable (or perhaps free for the poor of this country) will allow these people to buy whatever they wish with the meager income they have and thus regain some dignity of which poverty strips them.

Halina

Halina Brown

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Sep 14, 2019, 4:31:53 PM9/14/19
to Philip Vergragt, jo...@me.com, sco...@googlegroups.com

Thank you Philip, for these comments. I would go a step further with my critique of innovation in the pharmaceutical industry. We all take the concept of innovation as an absolute good. But is it really an absolute good if it bankrupts the economy? Do we really have enough money as a society to pay a million or two dollars per person for the future yet unknown cures to some yet unidentified diseases? This is not a new question among moral philosophers but I do not hear it being discussed at all in the public forum. There is a reason why most of the costs of bringing new pharmaceuticals to the market is covered by venture capital: the expectation of quick and huge returns to the investors and shareholders.

Halina  

 

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Jean Boucher

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Sep 14, 2019, 5:32:22 PM9/14/19
to H Brown, Philip Vergragt, jo...@me.com, sco...@googlegroups.com
Joe,
  Before we get too far along, could you break down your little paragraph for me on the "retrograde public private debate"? Maybe I'm too embedded in it to see it?  Of course, these are probably poles to a spectrum, but yes, we do throw these words around a lot - thanks,  Jean

Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:02:03 PM9/14/19
to Philip Vergragt, Halina Szejnwald Brown, sco...@googlegroups.com
Dear Philip,

Thanks for this. 

I think it’s important to separate two issues. 

The first is what drives innovation. The second is how we regulate what is acceptable innovation and what is not. And when not how we deal with it. 

I’m not sure I know what innovation driven by social consensus is or how that works. Innovation is driven by individuals’ and firms’ incentives to innovate. I don’t understand how it is driven by social consensus. 

We of course need to regulate innovation - whether it comes from firms, universities, public bodies like the NIH, or wherever. One recurring issue is that regulators cannot keep up with the pace of innovation. As bureaucracies they move slowly and ponderously and they tend to be regulating yesterday’s problems. Social media platforms are a case in point. By the time regulators have got their head around them, the firms have moved four steps further forward (or backwards in social terms if you prefer to look at it that way). 

In my experience there is not the shortage of discussion about these issues that you allude to. Certainly in healthcare ethics, these discussions have been ongoing for as long as I can remember. Often pretty vociferously and often resisted by the scientific community - whether those scientists happen to be in private or public sectors. 

The profit issue is, it seems to me, a bit of a red herring. The issues lie elsewhere and are not straightforward to resolve. 

Best

Joe

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

+31 646 86 21 76

radix.org.uk                                   amazon.co.uk    amazon.com

       


On Sep 14, 2019, at 3:09 PM, Philip Vergragt <pver...@outlook.com> wrote:

Dear Joe, and all,

With the danger of being labeled as a retro 60s or 70s adept, I’d like to discuss the drive for more and more innovation. First, I think that it would be useful to consider public-private partnerships with strong and clear rules as to profits and ethical research. Next, biomedical research takes us with the speed of light towards cloning humans and gene-editing and whatever these new technologies are being called, without a viable discussion about the desirability of that all, and about possible negative side effects. That takes me straight to Joe’s point about innovation. While I see the benefits of biomedical innovation and we all benefit from it in our personal lives, I would like to propose that we do not take “more innovation is better” for granted; just like we are questioning economic growth and unbridled consumerism. Innovation should be led by social consensus, not by profit making.

I agree that most innovation comes from smalls start-ups; and it is not easy to regulate that; but the implementation comes through buying up of small start-ups by large corporations; and there is the possibility for public intervention and regulation.

Warm regards,

Philip

 

From: 'Joe Zammit-Lucia' via SCORAI [mailto:sco...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:45 PM
To: Halina Szejnwald Brown
Cc: sco...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCORAI] public amenities instead of basic income

 

Dear Halina,

With respect, I find the paper circulated to be well off base. 

 

Public ownership of pharmaceutical research and development was tried in the 60s and 70s in some countries. It was an absolute disaster. Innovation stalled amid the public bureaucracy and lack of real incentives to innovate. Bureaucracies don’t innovate, they mainly spend their time justifying why they should get bigger budgets. 

 

The authors clearly have no idea of the dynamics of pharmaceutical innovation most of which now comes from agile startups funded by the financial markets rather than big pharma. This is emerging as the only way in which the high risk nature of pharmaceutical research and the need for global availability of innovation can be sustained. The idea that government monopoly (with all the inevitable political shenanigans that it involves) can carry this sort of risk profile is laughable. 

 

I also personally find the retrograde discussion of pitting private vs public a tiresome throwback to the 1970s. I thought we were done with all that and that most people had moved on to an understanding that a mixed economy works best provided we keep working towards refining the incentive structures - which are currently out of whack - and can get better but will never be perfect. 

 

The issue of healthcare funding and access is a very valid one but one that is proving to be highly intractable in most countries. Would be great if there were some magic bullet but there isn’t. 

 

And it’s not just the difficulty of trying to work out appropriate pricing for drugs (an impossibility) but also gets one into what should doctors, nurses and everyone else get paid? What is the right price for an MRI scanner? Should governments be building those too? And everything else? 

 

I have no easy answers I’m afraid. And, sadly, neither does anyone else. 

 

Beware those selling snake oil.

 

Best

 

Joe

 

 

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:14:16 PM9/14/19
to Halina Szejnwald Brown, Philip Vergragt, sco...@googlegroups.com
Dear Halina,

You are right to question what we can afford or not afford. 

That’s a complex question in terms of how society wishes to spend its money. Do we want to spend more on education, healthcare, UBI, unemployment benefit, defense, culture and the arts, and the endless other things that we could spend money on. 

And how does ‘society’ make those decisions? 

And what is the best method for financing all of these things - public through the tax system? Private? Some kind of combination? 

And knowing that we cannot afford to make all these innovations available to everyone all the time, what mechanism of rationing should we use? And how do we justify it to those people whose child, for instance, could be cured of a severe disease but someone somewhere decides the treatment is not affordable? 

I would suggest that reducing these complicated questions for which no easy answers exist to equating pharmaceutical innovation with bankrupting the economy or that it’s all due to investors wanting easy returns may not do justice to the issues involved. 

Maybe I read different things than you do, but in my world these questions are constantly being discussed and argued over - and not just by moral philosophers. 

Best

Joe

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

+31 646 86 21 76

radix.org.uk                                   amazon.co.uk    amazon.com

       


 

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:25:05 PM9/14/19
to Jean Boucher, H Brown, Philip Vergragt, sco...@googlegroups.com
Dear Jean,

Thanks. 

What I meant is that in the 1970s and later many engaged in an endless battle. One side believed that everything that was public was good and everything private was bad. Then we went through a period where the fashion was exactly the opposite: private is good public is bad. 

I thought we had got past all of that and had reached an understanding that each had its strengths and weaknesses and that what we needed was to keep looking for the appropriate balance and work our what was most appropriate for what. 

What I find tiresome is re-hashing the same discussions we had decades ago as though we’ve learned nothing. 

Of course there are people on both sides of this discussion who remain wedded to their own ideological convictions from which they won’t shift irrespective of any previous experience. 

But I believe that most mainstream discussion has now moved on to people trying to work out the best balance between private sector and public sector both of which are necessary. The discussion is now how to create synergy and effective collaboration between the two rather that the unproductive putting of one against the other. 

Don’t know if that makes sense. 

Best

Joe

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

+31 646 86 21 76

radix.org.uk                                   amazon.co.uk    amazon.com

       


 

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

Tom Abeles

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:25:35 PM9/14/19
to Joe Zammit-Lucia, Philip Vergragt, Halina Szejnwald Brown, SCORAI Group
Hi Philip
As I said earlier, innovation is baked into the global education system. It is even more evident in academia which requires such to be accepted in a scholarly journal.
As Joe points out, these issues have been argued ad infinitum and in novels where the government attempts to control individual skills to a societal norm. It's in the opening of Kubrick's 2001 where tools are discovered.

The concern over the arena of human enhancement and other biotech is one manifestation

It's what is being sought to address climate change and the ills that humans have brought on while creating benefits for society

It's like trying to put the Pillsbury Dough Boy in a corset. Push in one place and it pops out elsewhere


tom

Tom Abeles

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:30:10 PM9/14/19
to Joe Zammit-Lucia, Jean Boucher, H Brown, Philip Vergragt, SCORAI Group
Hi Joe

I think that the balance between public and private sector is far more complex than dealing with the pharma and health issues. We see this in the idea of "Moral Capitalism" or what some call democratic socialism in which the pharma issue is only one small subset. We see it in dealing with the SDG's and the balance between the developed and developing countries to use old terminology.

tom

Michael Howard

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:37:53 PM9/14/19
to Halina Brown, Richard Rosen, sco...@googlegroups.com
Halina,

Your points about the pharmaceutical industry are well taken. My reference to cheese was not meant as an analogy with public ownership of the pharmaceutical industry, but with giving people food in kind rather than trusting them to make their  own choices with cash.  Your objection was to giving people any amount of unconditional cash  income  because they might spend it unwisely. There is hunger today in America. I don't see why we can't address inadequate income (whether as a UBI, or the Tlaib's proposed conversion of the EITC into a negative income tax), at the same time as we address the lack of  collective provision of public goods. 


Michael W. Howard
Department of Philosophy
The Maples
The University of Maine
Orono, Maine 04469 USA



Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Sep 14, 2019, 7:50:29 PM9/14/19
to Tom Abeles, Jean Boucher, H Brown, Philip Vergragt, SCORAI Group
Dear Tom,

Agreed. The pharma piece is a miniscule part of this. It’s a question of how we structure our whole political economy. 

I only raised it re pharma because that was the specific context of the thread. 

Best

Joe

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

+31 646 86 21 76

radix.org.uk                                   amazon.co.uk    amazon.com

       


On Sep 15, 2019, at 12:29 AM, Tom Abeles <tab...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Joe

I think that the balance between public and private sector is far more complex than dealing with the pharma and health issues. We see this in the idea of "Moral Capitalism" or what some call democratic socialism in which the pharma issue is only one small subset. We see it in dealing with the SDG's and the balance between the developed and developing countries to use old terminology.

tom

On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 6:25 PM 'Joe Zammit-Lucia' via SCORAI <sco...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Jean,

Thanks. 

What I meant is that in the 1970s and later many engaged in an endless battle. One side believed that everything that was public was good and everything private was bad. Then we went through a period where the fashion was exactly the opposite: private is good public is bad. 

I thought we had got past all of that and had reached an understanding that each had its strengths and weaknesses and that what we needed was to keep looking for the appropriate balance and work our what was most appropriate for what. 

What I find tiresome is re-hashing the same discussions we had decades ago as though we’ve learned nothing. 

Of course there are people on both sides of this discussion who remain wedded to their own ideological convictions from which they won’t shift irrespective of any previous experience. 

But I believe that most mainstream discussion has now moved on to people trying to work out the best balance between private sector and public sector both of which are necessary. The discussion is now how to create synergy and effective collaboration between the two rather that the unproductive putting of one against the other. 

Don’t know if that makes sense. 

Best

Joe

Philip Vergragt

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Sep 15, 2019, 6:12:00 AM9/15/19
to Tom Abeles, Joe Zammit-Lucia, Halina Szejnwald Brown, SCORAI Group
Thank you, Tom and Joe.
It is hard to disagree with you both.
The point is: innovation is so fast, and consequences sometimes so unexpected that not only regulators but society at large have difficulty catching up. Who could have foreseen the connection between social media and fake news.
Social consensus on technological innovation has been tried out under the heading of constructive technology assessment which now is perpetuated in socio-technical transition research, as you know a very prolific area of research and social experimentation.
What is the link with sustainable consumption? Innovation continues to create new products and services which often reinforce consumerism. Maybe too sweeping statements, but there is a lot of research on that area.
Philip


From: Tom Abeles <tab...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019, 7:25 PM
To: Joe Zammit-Lucia
Cc: Philip Vergragt; Halina Szejnwald Brown; SCORAI Group

Joe Zammit-Lucia

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Sep 15, 2019, 6:38:26 AM9/15/19
to Philip Vergragt, Tom Abeles, Halina Szejnwald Brown, SCORAI Group
Dear Philip and Tom

Agreed. 

I feel that one of the issues is the continued perception of our ability to ‘control’ anything. Our societies and economic systems are far too complex for that. 

If we persist in the idea that we can somehow deal with social and economic issues through a command and control model, we’re going to get nowhere. Control is a myth. Not to mention the question of who should be in control if we could actually control things. Most people’s unspoken answer to that question is ‘people who think like me’. Well, we know where that ends up. 

More productive than the control mindset is the complexity science approach that focuses on interventions that can catalyse emergent change in complex systems. Lots of literature on that which hasn’t yet made it into mainstream public policy thinking. 

Best

Joe

Dr Joe Zammit-Lucia

+31 646 86 21 76

radix.org.uk                                   amazon.co.uk    amazon.com

       


Joe

Tom Abeles

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Sep 15, 2019, 9:39:47 AM9/15/19
to Philip Vergragt, Joe Zammit-Lucia, Halina Szejnwald Brown, SCORAI Group
Hi Philip
You may have struck the nail on the head, "new products and services which often reinforce consumerism

All life consumes and competes in order to survive, whether the smallest microbe or humans. Innovation is the vehicle that makes that survival possible. It's not just the "innovation" but how that innovation is packaged such as color to protect or entice. Flavored tobacco for "vaping" or even education when the organism is a society. Hence the efforts around climate change. Halina's post of pharma in particular and medical technologies, procedures and products in general fit this category. The false coloring of an insect to attract or camouflage is another example. Selling more education to "inform" individuals using different methods such as computer assisted learning is another for the survival of the education system in an increasing technological world  as also with the rise of FinTech.

It's not the "innovation" but rather the consumption that is the issue at hand. As you mentioned, the area of innovation is gaining substantial momentum in academia where innovation is the means to generate publications, conferences and similar for promotion and tenure- an excellent example. It is quite visible with the rise of heterodox economics which the economic "discipline" sought to limit to protect the current hegemony of neoclassical economics. Environmental studies as a legitimate area is one closer to the inhabitants of this list.

Innovation is only a subset of the armamentarium that humans use for survival via consumption of resources, whether bio/physical or socio/economic.

tom

Adrian Smith

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Sep 16, 2019, 4:04:51 AM9/16/19
to tab...@gmail.com, Philip Vergragt, Joe Zammit-Lucia, Halina Szejnwald Brown, SCORAI Group

Hi Tom, Philip and all at SCORAI

 

If I may add something here, I think we need to take care with innovation.

 

I see many state and corporate interests evoke innovation in an undifferentiated way, which creates all sorts of problems, including those mentioned in this thread. Scepticism and critique are important here. However, I think that to do so in a similarly indiscriminatory way will be just as problematic. It is more a matter of what kinds of knowledge, ideas and novelties societies wish to cultivate and how: the directions of innovation to be taken. Clearly, the implications for consumption should be one guide. I like the way my colleague Andy Stirling put it recently:

 

“Innovation is about more than technological invention. It involves change of many kinds: cultural, organisational and behavioural as well as technological. So, in a world crying out for social justice and ecological care, innovation holds enormous progressive potential. Yet there are no guarantees that any particular realised innovation will necessarily be positive. Indeed, powerful forces 'closedown' innovation in the directions favoured by the most privileged interests. So harnessing the positive transformative potential for innovation in any given area, is not about optimizing some single self-evidently progressive trajectory in a 'race to the future'. Instead, it is about collaboratively exploring diverse and uncertain pathways – in ways that deliberately balance the spurious effects of incumbent power. In other words, what are needed are more realistic, rational and vibrant 'innovation democracies'.

 

Yet conventional innovation policy and regulation tend simply to assume that whatever products or technologies are most energetically advanced, are in some way self-evidently beneficial. Scrutiny tends to be through narrow forms of quantitative 'risk assessment', focusing only on particular direct risks and asking merely whether they are 'tolerable' –often at a time too late for significant change. Technologies are typically privileged over other innovations. Attention is directed only in circumscribed ways at the pace of innovation The result is a serious neglect for the crucial issue of the direction of innovation in any given area–and increased vulnerability to various kinds of 'lock in'

 

Together, qualities of participation, responsibility and precaution help ‘open up’ scrutiny and accountability beyond anticipated consequences alone, to also interrogate the driving purposes of innovation.They allow societies to exercise agency not only over the rate and riskiness of innovation, but also over its direction. And they offer means to enable hitherto more distributed and marginal forms of innovation –which presently manage only rarely (like renewable energy or ecological farming) to struggle to major global scale. Together, these qualities celebrate that innovation is not a matter for fear-driven technical imperatives, but requires a democraticpolitics of contending hopes.

 

https://steps-centre.org/wp-content/uploads/Innovation-Democracy.pdf

 

Of course, disagreeing with this argument, and seeing innovation as something to be resisted per se rather than its directions, is to contribute to the kind of democratic deliberations being encouraged here …

 

All the best

 

Adrian

 

Adrian Smith

Professor of Technology & Society

Science Policy Research Unit, University of Sussex

@smithadrianpaul

 

Joe

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Chad M. Baum

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Sep 16, 2019, 5:32:49 AM9/16/19
to SCORAI
Dear Adrian, Dear Philip, Dear all at SCORAI,

Thank you for this interesting discussion. I have enjoyed mulling around all the insights here.

I want to reinforce the point from Adrian above. In fact, I heard some echoes in the above quote from Jasanoff et al.'s essay on CRISPR Democracy: https://issues.org/crispr-democracy-gene-editing-and-the-need-for-inclusive-deliberation/ . So I just want to make a point or two here.

There is a tendency to think of "innovation" as just one thing. And specifically something like the most sophisticated biomedical or biotechnology research. But, however slowly, the growth of concepts such as "social innovation" or "rural innovation" in innovation research brings in the greater relevance of context. In my experience, rural innovation tends to highlight some of those smaller, more human-centered innovations -- perhaps from having re-outfitted existing tools -- to further the specific goals and aims of rural societies. 

Now, these are just concepts -- and rather underdeveloped ones at that -- but they hold promise. Notably, if there were more emphasis on "innovation" in this other sense, then it could push us to better consider the trade-offs that exist between different technologies. The key issue is not therefore what are the risk/benefits of a given technology, but rather, what are its benefits, risks, opportunities and consequences of this decision -- at the broader level of choices between and among technologies -- when it comes to societies.

To hopefully make this point a touch clearer. I point to the earlier quote from Philip: 

While I see the benefits of biomedical innovation and we all benefit from it in our personal lives, I would like to propose that we do not take “more innovation is better” for granted; just like we are questioning economic growth and unbridled consumerism. Innovation should be led by social consensus, not by profit making.

While I generally agree, I think the framing here is wrong. It is not necessarily about the benefits of biomedical innovation, but how devoting all our resources, and locking-in these technologies might adversely thwart our potential research in other directions. 

Of course, this completely elides the difficult decisions of how (and by whom) such choices are made -- but here is one potential governance example. I had previously read that, in order to deal with regulatory decisions on the approval of GMOs, Norway since 2005 has opted to not only use a 'science-based' safety review but also include a public consultation process. Now the latter is generally useful, but this process specifically asks people (and considers) whether GMOs are (i) better than the existing alternatives and (ii) contribute to sustainable agricultural practices. It is a small step, but here we see how approval of the new technology requires that the "innovative step" not simply be the potential profitability but rather that it offers something different and useful (for sustainability) beyond what already exists. In other words, if integrated pest management and the like can achieve the same, then we have no need to go down this novel technological trajectory.

Cheers
Chad

Gough,I

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Sep 17, 2019, 2:18:33 PM9/17/19
to Christoph Rupprecht, jlb...@gmail.com, HBr...@clarku.edu, Ruben Nelson, SCORAI Group
Dear all,

This argument, for the provision of public services rather than cash benefits, has recently attracted the label 'Universal Basic Services' (UBS) in the UK and parts of Europe, to counterpose it to UBI. I have recently tried to provide a conceptual underpinning for the idea - and to counter some of the economistic arguments - in my article in the Political Quarterly - below. 
It suggests - but does not argue - at the end that UBS is incompatible with UBI for normative and fiscal reasons.
A much fuller argument for UBS will be published early next year by Anna Coote and Andrew Percy: The Case
for Universal Basic Services, Cambridge, Polity Press, 2020.

Best, Ian




Ian Gough FAcSS FRSA
Visiting Professor in CASE and Associate of GRI, London School of Economics; Emeritus Professor, University of Bath https://personal.lse.ac.uk/goughi/

New: 'Universal basic services: A theoretical and moral framework'. Political Quarterly, 2019: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/1467923x

Book: Heat, Greed and Human Need: Climate Change, Capitalism and Sustainable Wellbeing
Available in paperback, hardback and ebook: https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/heat-greed-and-human-need

Between a 'dangerous present' and a 'seemingly impossible future' lie many possible unequal paths for human wellbeing... Ian Gough suggests human needs provide the best framework to reconcile these dilemmas. Ecological Economics

An impressive piece of work, rich and dense (in a good, difficult way), touching on an extraordinary range of issues and scholarship, and packed with detail and data. Political Quarterly

A state of the art review about how social inequalities are linked to climate change. Swiss Political Science Review

Bit by bit this interesting tour leads us to some sacred cows - including the assumption that there is no alternative to continuous economic growth … Engaging in a clear eyed way with these issues requires both hard-headedness and Utopianism. Journal of Social Policy

A well-researched, well-argued, well-written, timely, and important book ... not just an academic book (but) a manual for policy makers. Citizens Basic Income Trust

In this wonderful book, Ian Gough shows how we can deal with climate change sensibly, by developing eco-social policy that promotes human wellbeing. The result is a tour de force. International Dialogue, A Multidisciplinary Journal of World Affairs






From: sco...@googlegroups.com <sco...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Halina Brown <HBr...@clarku.edu>
Sent: 13 September 2019 16:14
To: Christoph Rupprecht <crupp...@chikyu.ac.jp>; jlb...@gmail.com <jlb...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ruben Nelson <ruben...@shaw.ca>; SCORAI Group <sco...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [EXT] Re: [SCORAI] public amenities instead of basic income
 
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Murphy, Jason

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Sep 17, 2019, 3:10:08 PM9/17/19
to i.g...@lse.ac.uk, Christoph Rupprecht, jlb...@gmail.com, HBr...@clarku.edu, Ruben Nelson, SCORAI Group
Ian Gough, I appreciate your link. I have found your proposals very interesting. I don't understand why basic income cannot sit beside them. 

If you argue that "UBS is incompatible with UBI for normative and fiscal reasons", then you must be declaring a very particular program surround basic income. You cannot mean that UBS requires ZERO cash grants. I am a basic income enthusiast but I would never argue that a cash grant forbids all UBS provisions. 

In a recent article, we see that 3% of the GDP would secure $12,000 for all adults and half that for all children. This three percent could be garnered with taxes on consumption, pollution, and wealth. A couple more percent could guarantee this amount in light of price changes. https://works.bepress.com/widerquist/75/  Here is a link to a magazine article that sums up this academic one: https://qz.com/1355729/universal-basic-income-ubi-costs-far-less-than-you-think/  

I just don't see how this percentage of the GDP (especially coupled with "good taxes" like one on carbon or financial transactions) would be incompatible with anything. There is no reason to presume cuts in other provisions, especially in the States and other countries where those cuts have already happened. 

We could abolish destitution and promote an economy that is less destructive and that caters to a much larger percentage of people. 

--jbm 



--
Jason Burke Murphy, Associate Professor, Philosophy, Elms College 
Elms is a liberal arts college founded by the Sisters of Saint Joseph in Chicopee, Massachusetts. www.elms.edu 

Gough,I

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Sep 18, 2019, 5:50:21 AM9/18/19
to Murphy, Jason, Christoph Rupprecht, jlb...@gmail.com, HBr...@clarku.edu, Ruben Nelson, SCORAI Group
Jason,

It is true there is a big difference between the gross and net costs of a UBI. But all extant proposals entail abolishing a host of tax credits and allowances that have accrued over decades and which households have incorporated in their planning. The political costs of implementing such an overnight transformation would be very high.

I paste below part of a reply I wrote with Anna Coote to an advocate of UBI published in the London Review of Books on August 1st, which makes some further arguments as to why a full-blooded UBI is incompatible with a public service economy.

------------

Unless we can be clear about what UBI actually entails, confusion will reign.  There are indeed many different versions, as Lanchester concedes.  But there is also a core idea: UBI is a programme to give every citizen or resident a regular income for life with no strings attached which is enough to live on and provide ‘security’.  It is not Brazil’s Bolsa Familia programme. It is not even Alaska’s Permanent Fund, since $1400 a year is not enough to starve on, let alone enjoy security. Nor is it any of the various plans, from the UK Royal Society of Arts scheme or Andy Stern’s US plan or van Parijs’ start-low-and-see-how-it goes €200 idea.


All extant pilots, experiments and plans are partial.  They give money to selected groups of people or they give a little bit of money to everyone and usually payments cease after a limited period.  Insofar as there is evidence that any of these ‘work’, it is only on their own, limited terms. So what is all the fuss about? The key is that they are all promoted as way stations to a Big Idea that will transform our lives and politics. But then we encounter two fundamental issues: cost and the very desirability of this as the end-goal of progressive politics.


Lanchester’s arguments around cost are specious. He concludes that ‘many forms of UBI are more affordable than you might think.’ But the most affordable are those he correctly labels as ‘dystopian Mad Max’. It is not ‘odd’ that the origins of UBI lie with Hayek and Friedman, quite the opposite. Eliminating all collective infrastructure and services whilst giving the poor just enough money to survive and expecting them to purchase all life’s necessities in the market is a perfectly rational neo-liberal project.


Interestingly Lanchester provides no estimates of the costs and benefits of the ‘full fat’ welfare state plus UBI option.  Yet they exist. The 2016 Compass scheme for the UK is admirably honest here: despite raising income tax rates by 5p, abolishing personal tax allowances and extending NICs to all employees, the BI achieves tiny falls in pensioner and working age adult poverty and reduces the numbers reliant on means-testing by only one fifth. Luke Martinelli after exhaustive modelling concludes: “an affordable UBI is inadequate and an adequate UBI is unaffordable.”


So in truth we cannot have a full UBI and at the same time safeguard and build the social infrastructure of a generous welfare state. This crucial insight has led some of us to argue for universal basic services (UBS), a collective programme for meeting needs we all share.  This offers a radical alternative that is far more affordable and effective.


Most serious is the political vacuity of UBI as a progressive slogan for greens and the left. The overriding tasks today are keeping within planetary limits – addressing climate breakdown, species extinction and other existential challenges, whilst at the same time shifting from a greed-driven to a need-driven economic system. The central slogan should be a ‘just transition’ from the present to a future green, equitable and sustainable world. There are other movements and programmes out there to help realise this vision, such as a Green New Deal.  To spend all our political and fiscal capital on a dream that cannot be realised is irrational and perilous.



Ian Gough





From: Murphy, Jason <murph...@elms.edu>
Sent: 17 September 2019 20:09
To: Gough,I <I.G...@lse.ac.uk>
Cc: Christoph Rupprecht <crupp...@chikyu.ac.jp>; jlb...@gmail.com <jlb...@gmail.com>; hbr...@clarku.edu <HBr...@clarku.edu>; Ruben Nelson <ruben...@shaw.ca>; SCORAI Group <sco...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: [SCORAI] public amenities instead of basic income
 
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