New issue
Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.
By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.
Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account
Allow to independently choose whether or not to speak Enter key #6553
Comments
@rimas-kudelis Thanks for raising this issue. P3 considering this is a fairly specific use, however I think this could improve the user experience for some people. So conceptually there seems to be at least the following approaches:
|
I think considering Enter a regular character would be a more practical approach, and probably much easier to implement. One thing to keep in mind though is that instead of speaking "carriage return line feed" that key press should speak "enter", because breaking a line is not what this key always does. As to adding categories for control characters – I think this would be overkill. I can hardly imagine people needing that, although I might be wrong. |
Having a UI for speaking certain command keys would be really nice. It's |
I'd like this and vote for option 2 |
I guess it makes sense to include enter in speak typed characters, though
note that the implementation will be a separate code path. I don't think a
UI to choose command keys is a good idea. Yes, it offers maximum
flexibility, but at the cost of greater complexity and potential user
confusion.
|
Hello! At least in Portugal and Brasil many people want to hear Control, Alt, It will be very nice to be able to define which keys are echoed... |
It'd be good if you can explain why. I understand enter; that at least can
be considered to be a typed character instead of a command key. However,
differentiating between the arrow keys and other command keys seems
entirely arbitrary. If you don't need to know about the arrow keys, why f1,
control+o, etc.? Having some sort of list which lists every single key and
allows you to configure them would be extremely tedious and the users who
would actually spend the time configuring this would surely know the
keyboard well enough anyway.
|
Basically, most users want to hear all keys pressed except arrow keys... It is possible to, at least, diferenciate between command keys and arrows? |
Sure, it's possible. The question is: what makes the arrow keys so special?
The user wants an audible confirmation of command key presses, so why not
the arrows? If there's no solid explanation for this distinction, it is
counter-intuitive at best.
|
I guess one could say that the arrow key block is shaped rather distinctively, thus making audible confirmation unnecessary. |
The three major reasons are: |
Hi, |
I still don't really follow the reasoning here; surely hearing "f1", That said, #5484 (the original issue regarding the arrow keys) actually If we had a list of keys to choose from and key combinations like NVDA+b |
A compromise solution: That way will have three group of keys; Other solution is mapping all command keys, after all they are only a few |
What about 3 levels of keys similar to punctuation? Yeah, I know it's |
Precisely. None, some and all is even more arbitrary here than it is for
symbols.
|
I guess another compromise is to split command keys into groups, such as Alt+foo, Ctrl+foo, NVDA+foo, Arrow keys etc., and allowing to toggle these groups. How many of them would there be? |
Too many! |
Hi, I aggree with Rui Fontes Solution: Most of my students become confused, when Enter key and accents are not spoken. |
Hi,
Are there any users who would like to retain announcement of arrow
keys via the Speak command keys option? If absolutely none, removing
arrow keys as a whole from being reported under all settings should be
considered, because it is unlikely and unproductive for anyone to
enable arrow keys while working, or even creating tutorial content for
beginners, or in any scenario I can currently visualize.
Also, adding only Enter to the characters spoken even with the afore
mentioned setting off would be of significant help to beginners, as
many NVDA users and trainers have reported in the past, and shouldn't
have any counter-productive consequences in the UX of other users.
However, Enter in comjunction with other keys, in the form of key
commands, shouldn't be verbalized.
The above two cases have been pretty much unanimously agreed as
expressed in several comments and through various tickets in the past,
and thus I have specifically requested their implementation.
With the arrow keys eliminated and the Enter key spoken, we may have a
clearer picture of the user demand going forward.
Thanks.
…On 3/2/17, nsousa2007 ***@***.***> wrote:
Hi,
I aggree with Rui Fontes Solution:
"A compromise solution:
1 - Considere Enter, and accents like accut accent, grave accent, tilde and
carete, as a character;
2 - Separate arrows from command keys.
That way will have three group of keys;
1 - Typeable characters including Enter and accents;
2 - Arrow keys;
3 - All other keys;"
Most of my students become confused, when Enter key and accents are not
spoken.
Please work on this solution as soon as possible. I know most of us don't
need it, but we cannot forget there are beginers who need it!
Thanks
--
You are receiving this because you commented.
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub:
#6553 (comment)
--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Avid Enthusiast and User of the Free NVDA Screen Reader (www.nvaccess.org)
Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750
|
Please, do not forget the accents, like Norberto said... And I add cedilla,
trema, diaresis and so on...
They make part of characters...
Rui
…-----Mensagem Original-----
De: bhavyashah
Data: 2 de março de 2017 23:06
Para: nvaccess/nvda
Cc: ruifontes ; Comment
Assunto: Re: [nvaccess/nvda] Allow to independently choose whether or not to
speak Enter key (#6553)
Hi,
Are there any users who would like to retain announcement of arrow
keys via the Speak command keys option? If absolutely none, removing
arrow keys as a whole from being reported under all settings should be
considered, because it is unlikely and unproductive for anyone to
enable arrow keys while working, or even creating tutorial content for
beginners, or in any scenario I can currently visualize.
Also, adding only Enter to the characters spoken even with the afore
mentioned setting off would be of significant help to beginners, as
many NVDA users and trainers have reported in the past, and shouldn't
have any counter-productive consequences in the UX of other users.
However, Enter in comjunction with other keys, in the form of key
commands, shouldn't be verbalized.
The above two cases have been pretty much unanimously agreed as
expressed in several comments and through various tickets in the past,
and thus I have specifically requested their implementation.
With the arrow keys eliminated and the Enter key spoken, we may have a
clearer picture of the user demand going forward.
Thanks.
On 3/2/17, nsousa2007 ***@***.***> wrote:
Hi,
I aggree with Rui Fontes Solution:
"A compromise solution:
1 - Considere Enter, and accents like accut accent, grave accent, tilde
and
carete, as a character;
2 - Separate arrows from command keys.
That way will have three group of keys;
1 - Typeable characters including Enter and accents;
2 - Arrow keys;
3 - All other keys;"
Most of my students become confused, when Enter key and accents are not
spoken.
Please work on this solution as soon as possible. I know most of us don't
need it, but we cannot forget there are beginers who need it!
Thanks
--
You are receiving this because you commented.
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub:
#6553 (comment)
--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Avid Enthusiast and User of the Free NVDA Screen Reader (www.nvaccess.org)
Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750
—
You are receiving this because you commented.
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.
|
I guess I'm going to back Rui's suggestion as well, let's have three types of command keys: As to why somebody might want arrow keys as a separate group, I suppose the example of navigating a menu is really good: if I remember correctly, when navigating menu using access keys (such as f, o, n), you automatically trigger a command if that key only has one command attached to it in the current submenu. Whereas when using arrow keys, each menu item is being navigated to, but not triggered, so hearing stuff like "File [press a key] Down Arrow Open [press a key] Down Arrow New" might be annoying and rather counter-productive, since you don't really care which key you've just pressed as long as you know the menu item that is currently navigated to. |
As this comes up regularly, has there been any movement on this issue recently? |
Just had another request for this, and on the arrow keys point, they mentioned that they initially put speak command keys on, but then turned it off again primarily because of the arrow keys being announced - and they discovered they press arrow keys a lot more than they would have initially thought. |
Of course!
While NV Access doesn't understand that most novice users need to hear
the command keys, but not the arrow keys, we will always have these
requests...
|
People may use speak command keys for a variety of reasons. With the increasing popularity of laptops with all manner of key configurations, I think the assumption that the arrow keys are easy to find is less and less guaranteed. I'm going to add two comments. In this one I will sum up the thread so far, and in the next, I will add my proposed solution to move forward. So, firstly, to sum up, the main points and suggestions from the thread so far: |
Having read through the whole thread and summed it up in the previous comment, I'd like to propose the following three solutions to move this issue forward:
Yes it's arbitrary, but as noted, just about any solution is, and this solution at least gives a fair amount of flexibility with minimal complexity. Once implemented, we could then create a new issue if people really do want to distinguish between say function keys and other command keys or something. If we're agreed on that, I'd like to propose considering moving forward on implementing it. Alternatively if 1 and / or 2 are palatable, then we can move them to their own issues and we can continue discussing the best way to move forward on command keys themselves here? |
Hello Quentin!
I can agree with your proposal, except in point 2.
Diacritics and accents are printable characters, since they can be typed
separately, pressing space after it, or in conjunction with the
character pressed after it... so, they should be in speak typed
characters because they are printable...
|
@Qchristensen wrote:
1. Give "Speak typed characters" a third option. So:
* "None" (as "off" currently)
* "Characters" (as "on" currently)
* "All" ("Characters", plus ENTER and TAB because when typing, in places such as Word, both add whitespace, and having them in speak command keys would
Speak command keys? Do you mean having them in Speak Typed Characters? Because I
understood that to be your proposal here, to put them in with Speak Typed
Characters.
enable them to be set as needed in configuration profiles)
I like it. But somebody is going to immediately ask: why isn't space
included in "all", if you are including the other whitespace characters?
2.
Make "Speak command keys" also have three options:
* "None" (as "off" currently)
* "Complex" (speak everything except navigation keys)
Why not "some" instead of "complex"? Complex raises more questions than "some",
for example why is it complex? It implies maybe that it includes things that
aren't in "all".
Plus "some" is consistent with other multi-level options, and with other screen
readers which use the "None/Some/Most/All" model of rotary controls.
Yes it's arbitrary, but as noted, just about any solution is, and this solution at least gives a fair amount of flexibility with minimal complexity. Once
implemented, we could then create a new issue if people really do want to distinguish between say function keys and other command keys or something.
I definitely agree with the concept and the way you have suggested implementing
it. I just think "complex" is very much the wrong middle ground term for
command keys/modifiers.
The only other way to do it that I can think of, would be to keep the command
keys gesture as it is, and split off a new one for Speak Navigation Keys.
|
Rui, I wasn't arguing against implementing 2 (diacritics and accents etc being added to speak typed characters), merely that I wasn't familiar with why they weren't already and whether there was some separate issue involved, hence moving discussion on that to its own issue. @XLTechie Yes this issue was initially around speaking the enter key in speak command keys, but reading through all the conversation, I felt it made more sense, and made it more flexible to take the opportunity to enhance BOTH speak typed characters and speak command keys. Re when to speak space, the linked issue (#4029) aside (which can perhaps best be discussed in that issue rather than adding more complexity to this one), I felt for the sake of continuity for existing users, at this point, I would leave it where it is, spoken currently as other characters are when that option is enabled. Re the middle option - sure I'm happy to go with "some" rather than "complex". I was simply trying to convey what got spoken but you are right, it doesn't really do that and "some" is consistent with other 3-option toggles. |
Enter is currently treated as a command key. That means if you want Enter to be spoken, you have to enable speaking ALL of the command keys.
Since Enter is obviously also used when entering text, as opposed to just triggering commands, I think it would make sense to allow choosing whether or not to speak it separately.
Alternatively, instead of creating a separate checkbox, it might make more sense to actually speak one (or both) of the newline characters when they are entered. Currently, it seems they (or more precisely, only the LF character) are only spoken when navigating through a textfield with arrow keys, but not when they are entered from keyboard.
Issue 4029 is also somewhat related to this one, but they aren't interdependent or anything like that.
The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: